Posts by Band on the Run

7

"Some people think we don't believe in medical treatment."

by compound complex in

i have just read farkel's [hi farkel .

the statement appearing in the thread title was made at the kh.

do you think - or know - if such sentiments hearken back to the craziness of woodworth and franz and their off-center and ignorant medical advice in the golden age and other wt publications?

Band on the Run

It certainly is common. The rejection of blood is not principled to most people. It is logical to believe that a group that would ban a common, safe, life-saving procedure also is against any medical internvention. JWs are a fringe group. I don't feel they highlight their beliefs in a simple, cohesive form. Regular people are not going to pour over Watchtowers and Awakes. Mormons,seven day adventists, Christian Scientists are all considered fringe groups. I don't know if people are hostile but they are not informed of their beliefs. Why should they unless there is a comp religion course.

Blood was the most heart wrenching of all the JW silly rules. This was before fractions. I remember Ray Franz noting that no database was kept of hemophiliacs to get in touch with them when the teaching changed. God's policy did not change. Most people would have PTSD from the strain of knowing they aided and abetted someone's death needlessly. How is it different from killing someone in an accident? There is no principled distinction between fractions and whole blood. The scripture is insigniciant in my view. It does not go to the core of Jesus' teachings or the narrative of God's special relationship with Israel.

Real humans are denying others a fighting chance at life. Frankly, they painted themselves into a corner with the blood. It is one thing to die for Christ. Is the blood doctrine worth lives? What religion preaches this? It is probably the point on which most normal people will absolutely reject the Witnesses. I grew up surrounded by former Bethelites. They don't have special anything. Is blood refusal a doctrine or a means of exerting cult control.

120

Name Some Stupid Watchtower Rules or Ideas

by minimus in

jw
friends

there's a lot.. one rule that is dumb is that a brother must wear a suit for a sunday public talk that he is giving.

any other time, the brother could wear a suit coat with a different pair of pants and not be counseled for it.. another dumb idea is that you cannot date a person unless you seriously might marry them.

if you're on a date, you were supposed to always have a chaperone and holding hands might not be allowed as well as sitting together.. what other dumb rules and ideas can you add?.

Band on the Run

They do favor certain political processes and even candidates. It is covert. Don't tell me they don't prefer U.S. First Amendment rights and absence of taxation of religions. I may have posted before that I am intrigued with the Establishment Clause. Not taxing is subsidizing religion in violation of the Establishment Clause. All atheists and agnostics foot the bill for a religion they do not support. How is this difference from the established Church of England? Roman Catholicism and fundamentalists really get on my nerves. Yet I am paying for Catholic education and fundamentalist political activity.

On the other hand, taxation involves excessive entanglement in religion to enforce the code. Granting tax-exempt status is establishing a religion in large part. I'm not certain of the IRS rules. Obviously, they have passed constitutional muster.

My mom was terrorized growing up b.c the US was apparently losing WWII in the beginning. She always taked about MacArthur leaving Coregidor and the subs in CA and NY harbor waters the way I now talk about September 11th. The Society related the stories of brothers and sisters resisting in concentration camps. I can't believe that especially the ruling Bethel group wasn't thankful that they were Americans and largely isolated from the war compared to Europeans or Pacific peoples. It is so typical of civil liberties practice that the Supreme Court sometimes stands up to the vested interests to protect minorities. They can't even give qualified approval to a country willing to do so. Most countries do not. As a child I could not equate the US with Germany and Japan. I never believed in American exceptionalism b/c of the Witnesses.

I became interested in Establishment Clause law because it is so complex. First Amendment rights always attracted me as a child b/c of my own family's experience as Witnesses. Compared with every other field, the law does not seem principled but very political. There is a lifestyle war raging between the majority and minority. I want religion off me. Present law allows government funding of programs at Notre Dame and other Catholic schools as long the funding is indirect. The majority mistakenly believes funding is sanitized if individualls have choice. This is a serious legal fiction to me. Our country suports religion now more than any other Western democracy. The fact that Catholics once not considered Christian and seemly in polite society are now a majority of the Court is impacting the decisions. Discussing this issue with the general public, I am fascinated that it unleases very powerful feelings.

Law supposedly is built on principles, not politics, and gives notice so that people can order their business for a stable society. Law is not supposed to turn on which president appointed you. These cases are as tainted as Bush v. Gore. If anyone has any ideas how I could research what the underlying concerns are that pushes people's emotions so greatly. I'd appreciate hearing it. People are on one side or the other.

204

Paul, leading authority on Christianity, does NOT quote Jesus!

by Terry in

paul's letters practically invent christianity.. the gospels trickled in after him.. paul never walked with jesus and yet explains him.. never a quote from the master at all.. yet, paul is such a maven.. if jesus couldn't be bothered to actually reveal what he was all about to his apostles with whom he ate, drank, spoke and slept---why this persecutor, saul?.

the apostles heard every word jesus spoke and were willing to die for him.. paul didn't--yet--miraculously explained every detail of the entire history of god's purpose including his messiah.. .

can anybody provide a non-gimmick answer?.

Band on the Run

In a famous passage, whose citation I am too lazy to access, Paul's speaks of being a fool for Christ. He talks how the world view's Christ's crucixion as a folly. Messiahs were to be all-powerful, charismatic nations and not leaders of fringe groups who end up executed by Rome as common criminals. He says the folly of the gospel is eternal life.

The more I think about this thread I am more and more convinced that perhaps an earlier gospel existed that has not come to light. We are so dependent on reading that it is hard for me to realize that Homer's Odyssey and Iliad were recited from memory. Also,, a popular novel about Aztecs had chilling and interesting details about Aztec culture. Their specially trained reciters could go on for days, repeating things for word accurately. A priest once explained how we are so separate from the physicality of our bodies. New England farmers used to pick up a bunch of soil and predict weather conditions for the year. Today we've lost that skill with everything being analyzed chemically.

Paul's teachings were so different from Judaism that I wonder. He could not have conceptualized these thoughts in a vacuum. Not knowing the Jewish philosophical trends of the period is limiting. Erik Erikson wrote Young Man Luther and discussed psychological aspects of conversion that would apply to Paul and Augustine. His conversion must have been triggered by some aspect of his temperament rather than only an incident on the road to Damascus. Only Paul sees the blinding light and hears the voice. Others present noticed nothing. It was so profound that his life was completely altered. I envy his single-mindedness and his devotion to certainty. Maybe converting to Christianity was comforting compared to inner conflict about condemning Christians. We don't linger on the hapless Christian martyrs he executed. Indeed, they are not even saints. They are nameless. He needed God's grace. If only I could be certain and feel God's grace rather than agreeing it is good in a rational way.

31

The Watchtower denies that God is Omnipresent

by brotherdan in

i was flipping through the newest awake this afternoon and stumbled on an interesting article.

the title is "is god omnipresent?

" this is a pretty basic christian belief, and i thought that the watchtower was on board with it.

Band on the Run

I am thoroughly confused as to what they teach about the nature of God, Jehovah, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It strikes me as obscene to believe that God has an actual dwelling place as though God were human. In Jewish tradition, God is that which is not human. He is transcedent. I never liked their teachings and reasoning. It always set me on edge. Now I see the true nature more clearly. Jehovah's Witnesses are merely another cult and my family was only a victim. It could have been Nazism, Stalinism or maoism.

51

Help: Re: Letter to elders NOT to disfellowship otherwise legal action will be taken

by LouBelle in

hello there everyone.

i remember reading a while back about someone on here ( i think) that wrote a letter to the body of elders & headoffice that they should not take any action to disfellowship them as they would be distancing them from friends and relatives and would proceed to take legal action if the body of elders went ahead.. if anyone has that link or can point me in the right direction i'd appreciate that..

Band on the Run

Thanks. The legal organization of churches affecting First Amendment rights sounds like a PhD dissertion in political science or a law review article. Oh, how what I find interesting has changed. I wish I knew more about it.

25

Lack of Windows on KH

by Band on the Run in

when i active, kh had windows.

the classier one had glass walls.

i notice as i go about urban areas that they no longer have windows.

Band on the Run

So right about post-Armageddon architecture. It reminds me of the Nazi architect, Albert Speers, works. Truly depressing.

120

Name Some Stupid Watchtower Rules or Ideas

by minimus in

jw
friends

there's a lot.. one rule that is dumb is that a brother must wear a suit for a sunday public talk that he is giving.

any other time, the brother could wear a suit coat with a different pair of pants and not be counseled for it.. another dumb idea is that you cannot date a person unless you seriously might marry them.

if you're on a date, you were supposed to always have a chaperone and holding hands might not be allowed as well as sitting together.. what other dumb rules and ideas can you add?.

Band on the Run

I can't add some catchy tale. This thread is amusing because it is a group effort. I don't see how any of the restrictions apply to the doctrines they preach. All the emphasis is on superficial silly stuff. There are no Jesus sayings or Jesus in red print that talk about thongs, singing songs to God and a host of other crap.

54

The demons are sex perverts according to the March 15th WT

by life is to short in

ok i finished listening to the stupid wt today while driving to work.

i got so mad listening that i truly cannot do it while i drive.

it is worse then talking on a cell phone as it just makes my blood boil.. the study article on page 24 and 25 is talking about satan and the demons.

Band on the Run

Why do we assume that they have human apparatus? Also, as a feminist I find it disgusting that demons seem to be always males. Women can be just as witchy? My mind has two different versions of the Bible: the child one that was shaped by the Witnesses. It all makes sense in a magical way. If it seems noncohesive to me, I must be wrong. The adult part of me sees the Bible as valid but acknowledges a human process through which it emerged. The JWS and fundamentalists assume that whatever our culture currently believes was always valid. Noah could not be an inspiring story. Every little detail must be correct. God did not hand the Bible to humans completely written. Authors were not automotons.

25

Lack of Windows on KH

by Band on the Run in

when i active, kh had windows.

the classier one had glass walls.

i notice as i go about urban areas that they no longer have windows.

Band on the Run

It is amazing how such a small detail reflects the tone of the Society. Super nerds even in building. I chose stained glassed windows. Twelve Step programs trigger me when grey folding chairs are used. I am so glad I fled.

51

Help: Re: Letter to elders NOT to disfellowship otherwise legal action will be taken

by LouBelle in

hello there everyone.

i remember reading a while back about someone on here ( i think) that wrote a letter to the body of elders & headoffice that they should not take any action to disfellowship them as they would be distancing them from friends and relatives and would proceed to take legal action if the body of elders went ahead.. if anyone has that link or can point me in the right direction i'd appreciate that..

Band on the Run

This is the crux. Unless you are an intimate friend of an elder and he breaks his silence, you never know what actually triggered it. I know i get extra benefits from talking to consumer companies when I say that I am a lawyer and demand a supervisor. Behavior which is very odd for me when raised to be completely deferential. Other times I am convinced that most people despise lawyers and I am incurring extra suffering as a result. There must be ethical rules about not sending letters to people when there is no plausible theory to proceed.

It is sad b/c those who pay a legal fee will almost always triumph over someone who cannot afford a lawyer. Part of me would want to pay an elite law firm for a letter just to feel some paternal protection. It evens the playing field. The Witnesses are very arrogant in their work. Most churches believe this stuff is none of our business that God is a god big enough to handle it.